Quite frankly if some of the attitudes in this thread had been dominant in the past, there would not be a ski area on CairnGorm, in fact there would not be Scottish Skiing.

If there is one thing that would make me ski at cairngorm more often it would be uplift, esp from the ciste side and an automated ticket machine wouldn't go a miss either.It takes so long from arriving to getting on the pistes (even longer if you have to get the shuttle bus and then a train). even on the busiest day at glenshee with 2000+ people i rarely queue for a lift pass more than 5 mins.

I don't want to drive for 2 hours and then queue for a shuttle bus, then queue for 20mins for a lift pass, then queue 15/20mins for a train.

They could also reduce the price of the macaroni and cheese! tasty as it is, it's not worth £6!

fyi they have just put a new rope on the ww poma

As far as I'm aware, the mountain below the Cas carpark is mainly free of snow through the winter. That's why that location was chosen as the lower limit of the ski area. Continuous skiing to the Ciste carpark, for instance, is the exception to the rule (and that was always the case when I mainly skied Cairngorm in the mid-late 1970s.

If the mountain between the Cas and Glenmore is mainly free of natural snow then, by definition, the mean temperature at that altitude is above zero. So there's no point in making snow there, because it'll be a losing battle against the melt.

There are those in the ski biz who will have you believe that you can make snow above zero (you can with the assistance of liquid nitrogen or other cryogenic processes) ... but any systems like this are super-thirsty in terms of electricity use. Yes, one can make magic (real snow is sometimes temporarily made on tropical film sets, as a gimmick) but it's extremely expensive.

Quote:
If the mountain between the Cas and Glenmore is mainly free of natural snow then, by definition, the mean temperature at that altitude is above zero. So there's no point in making snow there, because it'll be a losing battle against the melt.

For the period November - April 2010 the mean temperature at the SSC Hut was +0.3°c and at Loch Morlich it was +0.9°c.

Most of the traditional ski runs on CairnGorm are usually skiable throughout the season, but much of the mountainside at the same elevation can often be snow free. Such is the nature and consequences of the maritime climate in Highland Scotland - we do largely ski on drifted snow.

It's also not simply about melt rates, it's also about snow accumulation rates. Precipitation intensity increases with altitude, this coupled with the adiabatic lapse rate means less snow accumulates at Glenmore than on the Plateau. However there is also less wind, thus snow cover remains more uniform at low elevations, unlike high on the mountain where it is usually concentrated into gullies, burns and other natural snow fields (and the snow fences).

Further, ablation rates are not solely linked to temperature, it's not warm days, but wet days and very windy mild days that do the real damage to the Scottish Mountain snow pack. Both rainfall intensity and wind strength ease as you come down the mountain. Below the tree line, forest cover further reduces the effective melt rate for each °c above the critical melt point temperature (which is not necessarily 0°c for various reasons).

from Colins blog

with all the return wheels lowered, checked and bearings replaced where necessary. We have bought a new motor for the West Wall poma which will get installed prior to the start of the season, also we are installing a new guide catcher assembly at the return station

I think that is a bit more that a new rope

touchy.... i meant 'just' as in recently...

As to snow accumalation discussion David G and Alan are both right - if it was left as is then yes it would not hold, but with strategically placed snow fences, tree regeneration and piste management then I think you could get some lasting runs down to to Glenmore.

I guess we need some clarity as to what Snow Making is envisaged - is it strategically placed making to cover areas such as the zig zags or full mountain cover for the lean years. I guess it it ever happened it would sart off with the former and progress to the later.

I may regret asking this but does anyone know what volume of water would be required to feed say 10 state of the art snow canons 12 hours a night? and what the electric bill

Surely the water wouldnt be an issue, just use the water from Loch Morlich and then at the end of the season it will just melt back into it, therefor no environmental damage wouuld be caused. As for the electricity, really not sure on that one.

Daveski,

I've observed your posts on these forums and you are clearly a nice guy and knowledgeable. You are also extremely negative about most developments and ideas which I think is unmerited. Almost everything is seeded with a massive dose of caution or a desire to see problems. Or is it just me?

Get the principles right and then deal with the detail of this proposal.

The points that you raise with respect to Coire Cas have already been discussed, at length, with the the CML management.

The critically important factor that most influences demand is to have the run to the Daylodge available. The first phase of any snowmaking installation should therefore be to ensure that the Zig Zags/Sheiling and Burnside runs are 'covered' We measured these areas so that CML would know how much snow would need to be made to cover these runs to any given depth. The volume of water necessary together with the power requirements could then be relatively easily calculated.
It's known from the snow cannon trials that there isn't sufficent water so tanks will be needed.
It was suggested to CML that small scale Hydro might provide the solution to power costs. This was investigated but the viability hasn't been made public.

The necessity of having a run to the Daylodge available has clearly been bought into by CML management and top marks to them for the efforts made last season to 'farm' snow for this purpose and for the plans to reconstruct the bridge across to the Carpark Tow, so that snow can be 'farmed' from the carpark.

Kind regards

Olderalan

Ah - another fantasy ski area thread

FWIW - Glenmore gondola would be a great idea, even without snow-making. It would solve many issues, and provide a a better visitor experience. Nevis Range have benefited massively from a low level access lift that runs all year round.
This should have been built 10 years ago, instead of the funicular.

As for snowmaking... Jamies dissertation certainly provides compelling evidence that snow-making could be possible in Scotland. However it doesn't model the effect of persistent high winds - which is something I have always maintained is the biggest unknown. The average winter wind speed above 2000ft in Scotland is 35mph+! People often forget that we ski almost exclusively on drifted snow... Though the innovative suggestion of solving this problem by expanding snow-making in a downward direction is interesting. Coire Cas to Glenmore tree run would certainly be something special. People have already made an outdoor snowpark in Kent (www.snowboardclub.co.uk/slopes-diggerland.html ). So I believe it might actually be technically possible to make snow that would last for 100 days at Glenmore.

The question then is one of economic viability, running costs, ecological impact - and of course where to find the massive investment that would be required



Edited 5 times. Last edit at 09.38hrs Tue 30 Aug 11 by Doug_Bryce.

Specific discussion about snow making 'on the mountain', ie above the existing base levels is best directed to the snow making thread to keep it one place:

[www.winterhighland.info]

"So I believe it might actually be technically possible to make snow that would last for 100 days at Glenmore."

Whilst I can't see a gondola being built any time soon, I have to agree that a tree lined run down to glenmore would be possible. You only have to look at the number of days skiing in the forest in the last few years - and that was without snow making.

It would be good to have a marked trail down to glenmore for when conditions allow - like the last 2 seasons.

Surely the Ciste is the biggest priority anyway, a massive area just being neglected. And surely if expanding in any direction it should be upwards - Corronation Wall?