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andytb


Posts: 358
Joined: Nov 2008
Last Visited: 10:36
4th May 2018
Re: Glenmore Gondola
Date Posted: 00.14hrs on Tue 23 Aug 11
Camacazi Wrote:
This seems a better idea to me ...


Now that is a totally insane behind that I can get behind. With Jamie's snow making, a valley to summit gondola, backup from the Funicular and the existing lifts for enthusiasts, Scotland would have a world class resort once again.

Tom Farmer, paint the gondolas yellow, I want to see the Headwall itinerary, the Sugar Bowl run and the Lower Ciste motorway.
David Goldsmith


Posts: 1283
Joined: Feb 2003
Last Visited: 08:28
6th Nov 2018
Re: Glenmore Gondola
Date Posted: 18.36hrs on Fri 26 Aug 11
I'd like a lot of convincing of the viability of making snow below the natural snowline. It's all very well arguing that enough could be generated at a time of deep frost to create a piste, but I can't see that the piste would enjoy a consolidated base and would therefore thaw and erode pretty rapidly (trees or no trees).

Then there's the cost - financially, and in terms of electricity burn.

skijunkie


Posts: 66
Joined: Nov 2010
Last Visited: 09:20
1st Dec 2011
Re: Glenmore Gondola
Date Posted: 19.01hrs on Fri 26 Aug 11
How viable is a year-round (or as much as can be managed) Snow park? A park which has a plastic base but topped up with some artificial or real snow.

Could this along with MTB track be the way to fund this?




Edited 1 times. Last edit at 19.02hrs Fri 26 Aug 11 by skijunkie.
alan


Posts: 10765
Joined: Nov 1994
Last Visited: 21:33
19th Feb 2024
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Re: Glenmore Gondola
Date Posted: 20.27hrs on Fri 26 Aug 11
As an aside to the technical viability, in terms of the financial cost of the energy burn and any environmental concern, Scotland aims to produce 100% of it's domestic electricity requirement from renewable resources by 2020. CairnGorm Mountain sits upon what's known as 'hot rocks', due to radioactive decay at depth in the Cairngorm granite.

Latest research by St Andrews University suggests substantial geo-thermal power potential, maybe there's a reason HIE never went ahead with selling the mountain!



Edited 2 times. Last edit at 20.46hrs Fri 26 Aug 11 by alan.
Hipennine


Posts: 1061
Joined: Dec 2005
Re: Glenmore Gondola
Date Posted: 08.16hrs on Sat 27 Aug 11
David Goldsmith Wrote:
I'd like a lot of convincing of the viability of making snow below the natural snowline. It's all very well arguing that enough could be generated at a time of deep frost to create a piste, but I can't see that the piste would enjoy a consolidated base and would therefore thaw and erode pretty rapidly (trees or no trees).

Then there's the cost - financially, and in terms of electricity burn.


For much of the season, the skiing on CGM is below the natural snow-line (ie the plateau) - the highlands doesn't have a conventional snow-line as in the alps.

Why wouldn't the piste enjoy a consolidated base ? - in many resorts worldwide, this is now the main purpose of snowmaking systems. Try flying over the Eastern Pyrenees in late autumn and this is obvious.

If it makes sense financially in Australia, it makes sense here.
matchstick1


Posts: 98
Joined: Jul 2011
Last Visited: 11:24
10th Jun 2013
Re: Glenmore Gondola
Date Posted: 09.31hrs on Sun 28 Aug 11
Fascinating topic and well done to Jamie for getting this issue some press attention.

I'm sure all the science stacks up but is it just me that has an unscientific side to me that's saying "this is Scotland, it's just a pipe dream and would never work"?

Frankly it won't ever happen though, will it?
daveski


Posts: 1506
Joined: Jan 2008
Last Visited: 10:01
28th Apr 2019
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Re: Glenmore Gondola
Date Posted: 14.14hrs on Sun 28 Aug 11
matchstick1 Wrote:
Fascinating topic and well done to Jamie for getting this issue some press attention.

I'm sure all the science stacks up but is it just me that has an unscientific side to me that's saying "this is Scotland, it's just a pipe dream and would never work"?

Frankly it won't ever happen though, will it?

Re snow making I don't think the real question is will it work but is it financially viable? My opinion is no, if you added all skier numbers for all of Scotland together it would still not generate enough revenue to make it viable. Would love to be wrong.
However, the Gondola has some merit though i think it has to go via the Ciste then the CAS as the CAS is where the current infrastructure is.



Camacazi


Posts: 207
Joined: Oct 2006
Last Visited: 22:15
11th Jun 2019
Re: Glenmore Gondola
Date Posted: 15.00hrs on Sun 28 Aug 11
If the road has snow on it you can easily ride to the Ciste from the cas but the other way round is not possible meaning any gondola pie in the sky idea should have a middle station at the position of the start of the ciste chair and a top station at the top of the funicular. This would also replace all ciste up-lift and could service laogh mor as well. The link up would be at the Ptarmigan station. The funicular would then be used for people lapping the cas which is something it could actually handle unlike its ability to handle the influx of people in the morning currently... It would be pointless getting a new shiny gondola to deliver people to the day lodge quickly for them to stand in a 45min+ que to get on a funicular and still have no uplift in the ciste.
Olderalan


Posts: 1510
Joined: Feb 2006
Last Visited: 15:23
7th Apr 2019
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Re: Glenmore Gondola
Date Posted: 16.42hrs on Sun 28 Aug 11
T determine Financial viability would require some insight and number crunching rather than just an 'opinion'
Remember, such a project would have year round use = year round income. For some years now CML have been banging on about only engaging in projects that will generate year round use but haven't yet managed to come up with anything......so, maybe a different organisation would be the way forward. Take over the Ciste as well as constructing the Glenmore Gondola with associated piste construction, snowmaking and Mountain Biking. Competition rather than monopoly.

Regards

Olderalan
DonaldM


Posts: 871
Joined: Jan 2009
Last Visited: 20:58
10th Aug 2019
Re: Glenmore Gondola
Date Posted: 08.32hrs on Mon 29 Aug 11
daveski Wrote:
matchstick1 Wrote:
Fascinating topic and well done to Jamie for getting this issue some press attention.

I'm sure all the science stacks up but is it just me that has an unscientific side to me that's saying "this is Scotland, it's just a pipe dream and would never work"?

Frankly it won't ever happen though, will it?
Re snow making I don't think the real question is will it work but is it financially viable? My opinion is no, if you added all skier numbers for all of Scotland together it would still not generate enough revenue to make it viable. Would love to be wrong.
However, the Gondola has some merit though i think it has to go via the Ciste then the CAS as the CAS is where the current infrastructure is.




Depends how you measure "viability". If it's simply defined as how one company or operation performs then no. If it means the wider economy benefits then yes. It's a shame that we have such a short sighted mentality.

It comes down to money and Scotland won't have that money until it's independent.

I'd like to see the car park underground similar to Tignes.
daveski


Posts: 1506
Joined: Jan 2008
Last Visited: 10:01
28th Apr 2019
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Re: Glenmore Gondola
Date Posted: 10.59hrs on Mon 29 Aug 11
I am not questioning the finacial viability of the Gondola, just the snow making aspects and yes its an opinion - I dont have enough facts to express more - my opinion is formed by reading various articles here and elsewhere and and soem on-line browsing.

As to routing of Gondola, if we were starting from a blank page would we even choose Caringorm? assuming it has to be near Aviemore, never mind whether Cas or Ciste. Due to the varied weather conditions I think it makes sense to have a mid mountain drop off as well as summit - the Ciste could not cater for it while the Cas can to some extent.

alan


Posts: 10765
Joined: Nov 1994
Last Visited: 21:33
19th Feb 2024
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Re: Glenmore Gondola
Date Posted: 11.16hrs on Mon 29 Aug 11
An access lift going to the Ciste, then onto the Cas would be asking for trouble - it's not called the Windy Ridge for nothing.

I feel the best overall outcome, both in terms of customer satisfaction, improving year round visitor experience and visual appearance of the mountain - while allowing sensitive development at a new base in Glenmore would come through the following:

•Remove link road and close Cas road to public, narrow road to a single track private service road.
•Relocate Cas car park capacity and a some extra to Glenmore Forest.
•Maintain road access to Coire na Ciste and retain Ciste car park.

Has the following advantages:

•Retains redundancy in access. (But is this really neccessary?)
•Less extensive parking in Glenmore, equals more sympathetic development.
•Re-balances Snowsports Area.
•Road to the Ciste is significantly easier to keep open and less exposed.

However, much of the road is a decent alignment for a piste and ground works for an extensive snow making system would be more acceptable along what is currently a road. There would still be a road snow clearing cost.


cmorrison


Posts: 1121
Joined: Sep 2007
Last Visited: 10:36
21st Apr 2021
Re: Glenmore Gondola
Date Posted: 11.56hrs on Mon 29 Aug 11
I actually completely disagree with daveski. I think the glenmore gondola is pie in the sky.

Financially there is no money to put it in and it would cost an absolute fortune. Planning wise it would be an even harder sell than the funicular as the residents of Glenmore won't want a big car park down there. HIE adn bank wise they would never trust anybody running the white elephant of the funicular to ever again build such a costly piece of infrastructure.

Snowmaking on the other hand has minimal initial outlay. Can be expanded as funds allow. Will increase the length of the ski season therefore increasing ski market so may be more likely to squeeze some cash out of HIE. Has been shown through Jamie's study to potentially make a huge difference to the number of skier days.

Snow making is a much easier sell than gondola building.
Hipennine


Posts: 1061
Joined: Dec 2005
Re: Glenmore Gondola
Date Posted: 13.21hrs on Mon 29 Aug 11
cmorrison Wrote:
I actually completely disagree with daveski. I think the glenmore gondola is pie in the sky.

Financially there is no money to put it in and it would cost an absolute fortune. Planning wise it would be an even harder sell than the funicular as the residents of Glenmore won't want a big car park down there. HIE adn bank wise they would never trust anybody running the white elephant of the funicular to ever again build such a costly piece of infrastructure.

Snowmaking on the other hand has minimal initial outlay. Can be expanded as funds allow. Will increase the length of the ski season therefore increasing ski market so may be more likely to squeeze some cash out of HIE. Has been shown through Jamie's study to potentially make a huge difference to the number of skier days.

Snow making is a much easier sell than gondola building.


Common sense returns !
daveski


Posts: 1506
Joined: Jan 2008
Last Visited: 10:01
28th Apr 2019
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Re: Glenmore Gondola
Date Posted: 14.40hrs on Mon 29 Aug 11
Ok I was clarifying a previous statement where I was actually questioning the snow making, not raising questions on the Gondola and to be precise. Its not as though anything will ever be done about either going by the effort and time it is taking to re-furbish the Ciste side.

I also struggle to understand what is meant by minimal initial outlay for snowmaking - I actually think its going to be shed loads to make it effective, first off I cant think of any handy water or power source for that matter. Any thoughts as to how many outlets (blowers or lances) will be required to cover the Cas side? what volume of water resevior and header pressure required? its not like it will run off mains.

So inreality what can CML do in the near term (too much red tape to do anything short term).

Here is a dose of realism

Improve Cas infrastructure to enable improved snow farming - in progress new machines, new ramps, new bridge
Refurbish Ciste side of mountain - in progress but slow
Additional snow clearing equipment - additioanl plough bought last year
Improve realiability of ww Poma - new cable, new motor et, etc

I get that from reading whats available in the public domain adding 2+2 and possibly coming up with 5.






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