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Doug_Bryce
Posts: 1373
Joined: Jan 2003
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Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 12.22hrs on Wed 31 Oct 18
£1m investment in snowmaking at Cairngorm
The Board of Highlands and Islands Enterprise (HIE) has approved a £1m investment in snowmaking equipment for Cairngorm to ensure the mountain can open for skiing this winter.
[ news.hie.co.uk]
So : HIE have found a spare million down back of the sofa to help Cairngorm out a tricky situation.
Some very obvious questions need to be asked here...
1) The Ciste chairs could have been refurbished for 300-400K. New 3-man Cairnwell chair up Tiger at Glenshee cost 800K. Surely improving the reduced uplift would be much better use of this money ?
[ www.eveningexpress.co.uk]
2) Snowmaking might allow them to patch up the tow tracks to allow access to mid mountain. However : how do people get back down at end of the day?!
3) Cairngorm have already decided to close the Ptarmigan cafe and Ski school this winter. Loss of basic amenities surely makes operation of the mountain less commercially viable. So why pour another million into the black hole?
[ www.bbc.co.uk]
4) Cairngorm had HIE funded demo of a snowfactory last winter and decided not to purchase one (instead Lecht took up the offer of trial unit). Funicular breaks down and they suddenly seem to have changed their mind....
[ news.hie.co.uk]
5) Presumably it can be concluded the broken "peculiar" is going to cost a lot more than £1 million to repair ? Who is going to be paying for this ? Surely they should be waiting for full report before making next move.
6) Should Holyrood be investigating the relationship between HIE and Natural Retreats ? Some damning evidence here that NAIL is nothing but an asset stripping company.
[ parkswatchscotland.co.uk]
7) Will all the tax payers who crowd funded snow making at Glencoe be refunded?
Head up their arse.
Nothing less that a full investigation by Holyrood now required.
The public funding at Cairngorm is what allowed them to diversify away from skiing and focus on the flawed funicular project - this has been to the detriment of entire Scottish Ski Industry.
Edited 1 times. Last edit at 13.15hrs Wed 31 Oct 18 by Doug_Bryce.
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brianwr
Posts: 223
Joined: Feb 2004
Last Visited: 20:09 26th Feb 2021
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Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 17.00hrs on Wed 31 Oct 18
Looks like panic measures through fear of what it would do to the Strathspey economy. Which, to be fair, would be pretty devastated by a whole season out of action.
2) they'll have to keep a run to the car park open too. How much snowmaking do you get for £1M?
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kammy
Posts: 295
Joined: Jan 2004
Last Visited: 21:23 2nd Mar 2021
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Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 17.22hrs on Wed 31 Oct 18
Even though I detest Cairngorm ski centre for what they have done, the short term measure is getting snow making technology to save this season from complete disaster.
Correct me if I am wrong I believe Snow factory costs at least £500.000 each so that makes it two, but if they use some other technology such as snow guns, I am not too sure how much each will cost.
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SnowmanDave
Posts: 186
Joined: Dec 2013
Last Visited: 17:46 14th Jun 2024
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Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 17.30hrs on Wed 31 Oct 18
Doug_Bryce Wrote:
2) Snowmaking might allow them to patch up the tow tracks to allow access to mid mountain. However : how do people get back down at end of the day?!
Edited 1 times. Last edit at 13.15hrs Wed 31 Oct 18 by Doug_Bryce.
Even IF you snow the lower sections How do beginners etc get from the mid station, to the top bowl??
Still got to get around the only two Pomas to get up..(WW & M1)
just a total clusterf*ck
---That was not a fall, I intended to do that!---
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ML
Guest
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Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 17.32hrs on Wed 31 Oct 18
Can snow-lances (with underground tubing) work? Like you see in the alps?
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CMartindale
Posts: 128
Joined: Aug 2014
Last Visited: 20:31 25th Jul 2019
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Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 19.43hrs on Wed 31 Oct 18
I can see why - it was the obvious thing to do - but I hope there are strings attached or it’s a loan. Otherwise it would seem like a tasty reward for such a poorly run operation...
I’m skeptical in any case that that many people will actually travel to Cairngorm - and the surrounding area - this season after all the recent news. Even for those who do the place will feel rammed with only a hundred folk!
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Doug_Bryce
Posts: 1373
Joined: Jan 2003
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Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 09.11hrs on Thu 1 Nov 18
CMartindale Wrote:
I can see why - it was the obvious thing to do
Really ?
I guarantee now the snow-factory simply won't be able to provide reliable cover (up and down) from car park to mid-station. It is an ill considered panic measure in response to the Funicular being out of action longer term.
With continuous operation, and reliable water supply, they *might* be able to make snow to cover the 100m shieling nursery rope tow. However they just laid off the ski school so no one left to teach beginners...
HIE are simply throwing more good public money after bad - at expense of other Scottish ski areas. The obvious problem Cairngorm have is that reduced uplift now limits their ability to make money when the snow does arrive.
Complete and utter madness.
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Hipennine
Posts: 1061
Joined: Dec 2005
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Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 09.41hrs on Thu 1 Nov 18
CMartindale Wrote:
I can see why - it was the obvious thing to do - but I hope there are strings attached or it’s a loan. Otherwise it would seem like a tasty reward for such a poorly run operation...
I’m skeptical in any case that that many people will actually travel to Cairngorm - and the surrounding area - this season after all the recent news. Even for those who do the place will feel rammed with only a hundred folk!
Have they announced confirmed day ticket price for the changed circumstances?
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petebenson1002
Posts: 10
Joined: Dec 2011
Last Visited: 16:51 22nd Jan 2019
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Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 11.22hrs on Thu 1 Nov 18
On the HIE website there is a FOI request regarding the initial discussions between the Techno Alpin and HIE/NR regarding the trial (of last year). The TA boy reckons that it would take two weeks of snow making (24 hr?) to cover the Sunkid tow (track and piste?), but doesn't say to what depth.
I can see a snow factory working really well for some where like the Lecht, but less so for cairngorm even if they chose to try and maintain a strip of snow from the top of the car-park T bar to the day lodge. And if it such a great idea now, why did they not buy one anyway? Oh, the Lecht snapped the rental one up, which was there anyway. My kids had great fun playing on the mountains of ice (pretend snow) that the thing creates after they were done with skiing.
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malks
Posts: 93
Joined: Jan 2008
Last Visited: 16:49 16th Feb 2021
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Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 14.33hrs on Thu 1 Nov 18
Doug_Bryce Wrote:
CMartindale Wrote:
I can see why - it was the obvious thing to do
Really ?
I guarantee now the snow-factory simply won't be able to provide reliable cover (up and down) from car park to mid-station. It is an ill considered panic measure in response to the Funicular being out of action longer term.
With continuous operation, and reliable water supply, they *might* be able to make snow to cover the 100m shieling nursery rope tow. However they just laid off the ski school so no one left to teach beginners...
HIE are simply throwing more good public money after bad - at expense of other Scottish ski areas. The obvious problem Cairngorm have is that reduced uplift now limits their ability to make money when the snow does arrive.
Complete and utter madness.
Completely agree, in the best hypothetical scenario, imagine that this super duper new snow canon/ snow making system does its job, they manage decent natural cover of snow and the new snow making equipment fills in/ patches in whats needed and every lift in the mountain is in operation........
- how do beginners access the plateau are? do cairngorm really think the Day lodge/ WW Poma or car park/ fiacail/M1 are going to be a plausible route?
- even if that is possible for people, how long is it actually going to take to get up the hill? think of the queues on a normal busy day when the train is running
- once everyone is up and spread about the hill, what about toilets, catering, seating or even worse..... first aid/ emergency facilities? So even though you get everyone spread out, people need to make their way back down to the car park for facilities.
Dont get me wrong, I guess they have to try something, but I just dont see it working.
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alan
Posts: 10768
Joined: Nov 1994
Last Visited: 22:57 6th Oct 2024
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Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 15.56hrs on Thu 1 Nov 18
Obviously the weather and snow will be a significant factor, but so to will CMLs commitment to snow making. They proved to themselves in 2013 what could be done with 2-3 cannons on the Sheiling area. That allowed a freestyle weekend and a jam to go ahead on the Sheiling Shred in late April when the weather was too wild for the Ptarmigan.
Probably best to focus on one route at least initially, down through the Slot and Carpark Run by the T-bar line rather than Burnside. That lower portion is a shallow hollow which will help protect and trap the snow - vs being pushed into the burn constantly on Burnside!
While it may get congested it’s something of A help that the Carpark Run is narrow for a good portion of it. This is a big investment in snowmaking, albeit under unfortunate circumstances but it is imperative CML grasp this opportunity because it’s success or otherwise will have not just an impact on Strathspey this winter, but on the future of modern snowmaking in Scottish Snowsports and the investment it could open up for all areas.
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Doug_Bryce
Posts: 1373
Joined: Jan 2003
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Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 16.18hrs on Thu 1 Nov 18
^ genuine question : for sake of discussion
would you spend £1 million on snow making ?
... or would you spend it improving the uplift ?
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telenord
Posts: 14
Joined: Feb 2016
Last Visited: 15:26 21st Apr 2021
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Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 16.26hrs on Thu 1 Nov 18
I am familiar with snow making at Sjusjoen Natrudstilen ski centre in Norway. For many years fan guns blasted snow on to the quad chair served piste during November to allow opening well before Christmas. In recent years a snow factory has produced sufficient snow to make a 3-5km cross-country ski track adjacent to the alpine centre. The snow is about 0.5-0.75 metres depth and the track is about 5m wide.
The snow factory was purchased about three years ago and they have opened with a track on 27 September in one year, but usually open in October. Many national teams are attracted to the area to train.
Considerable publicity is given to the first area to open.
Natrudstilen has a double snow factory, together with a nearby artificial lake to provide the water. I assume the water is filtered/farmed for fan gun use.
The link shows some of the cross-country ski tracks and a snow park at Natrudstilen.
[ m.facebook.com]
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alan
Posts: 10768
Joined: Nov 1994
Last Visited: 22:57 6th Oct 2024
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Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 17.34hrs on Thu 1 Nov 18
Doug_Bryce Wrote:
^ genuine question : for sake of discussion
would you spend £1 million on snow making ?
... or would you spend it improving the uplift ?
Well £1m of snowmaking to try and keep a low level and far from snow sure T-bar going for access throughout the season in a desperate attempt to match the high elevation snow sure runs in the Top Basin wouldn't be how to set about it under any sane circumstances. (Of course how long the M1 Poma can be kept going will come into play too, and the state of it's fencing is not good).
If we had a functioning funicular and £1m was to be spent on either snowmaking or a chairlift in Coire Cas, I'd got for snowmaking on the lower slopes in the first instance (preferably from top of Gunbarrel).
By being able to ski to the Base Station, you are increasing the hourly uplift by around that of a double chairlift by not having to mid-stop the Funicular. While at the same time being able to ski the Carpark Run to the Cas Carpark is a deal maker / breaker for a significant number of people. Thus you are getting more capacity (albeit indirectly) and encouraging people to visit in the first place.
Don't think you can separate snowmaking and uplift - they need to go hand in hand, that shinny new chair doesn't earn much if you can't ski from it!
However, the stark reality is that CairnGorm is in such a mess and state of dereliction that £1m doesn't even scratch the surface. We're likely looking at a large 8 figure sum to get out of this mess, and that would be true even if the decision was the nuclear option of removing the entire ski area.
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Doug_Bryce
Posts: 1373
Joined: Jan 2003
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Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 11.55hrs on Fri 2 Nov 18
Essential reading from Park Watch Scotland
The relationship between HIE and Natural Retreats quite rightly coming under severe scrutiny. Not least given HIE found a spare £1 million for Natural Retreats down back of the sofa....
[ parkswatchscotland.co.uk]
Quote: HIE’s response to the crisis at Cairn Gorm – fake news and flannel
Apologies to readers who received notification of a post yesterday by Alan Brattey on HIE’s failure to maintain ski infrastructure at Cairn Gorm and then found the link broken. I removed the post a few minutes after it had been published because HIE, on receipt of the report featured in it, had asked Alan for a meeting and for those involved to hold back on issuing more publicity until that had taken place. We will see if anything comes from this but if HIE was to use the information in the report to initiate enforcement action against Natural Retreats’ with a view to terminating their lease at Cairn Gorm that would be worth it. Alan and other local campaigners are quite clear that all such information will be made public in due course and there will be NO behind closed doors deals. The truth needs to come out.
Fake news
The HIE press release (see here) of 31st October, issued the day after their Board had met to discuss the funicular crisis, exposes the fundamental problem with their operations on Cairn Gorm – no politician or member of the public can trust what this public body says.
In this press release HIE explain that they are providing £1million to install a snow making machine in Coire Cas this winter and go on to state:
“This investment means that, even if the worst case scenario comes to pass and the funicular is out of action for the season, we can still look forward to a season of winter sports at Cairngorm, just as in any other year.”
If this statement was true we can assume that we do not need the funicular in ANY winter season – apparently its replacement with a snow making machine this year will ensure that the winter season can proceed “just as in any other year”. Why then have Natural Retreats effectively made 48 ski instructors redundant?
It is also fake news because without the Funicular there will be no way up to the Ptarmigan for beginner, children and early intermediates…..so to claim all will as usual is complete nonsense
This statement is a deliberate attempt to fool members of the public into believing that they can plan skiing holidays on Cairn Gorm in the expectation that, despite the non operation of the funicular, winter activities can continue “just as in any other year.” It is also a deliberate attempt to fool those who have already bought season tickets for the coming season to think that everything will be OK, “just as in any other year”. On the contrary these season ticket holders should be entitled to a full refund of their tickets – HIE has been totally silent on this – combined with an offer of discounted day tickets for those days when some uplift is working in the coming season.
HIE’s about turn on the potential of snow making machines
No-one should be surprised that the HIE Board decided to splash the cash in response to the uproar around their mismanagement of the mountain. They had already allocated £1.5m to lend Natural Retreats to build a dry ski slope and since that application was refused the money is “spare” and available. In fact some of the critics of the dry ski slope – which would have supported a handful of jobs at most – had long been arguing that CairnGorm Mountain Ltd should be using snow machines and the Save the Ciste Group has produced a detailed plan for how these could be powered by a run of river hydro scheme in Coire na Ciste. HIE has long dismissed those suggestions so its apparent about turn is welcome but should be treated with a healthy dose of scepticism.
Whether Natural Retreats and HIE are capable of making effective use of snow machines is an important question. Last season HIE provided part funding so that a Snowfactory could be leased and trialed at CairnGorm Mountain and at the Lecht. Each centre had the use of the TechnoAlpin Snowfactory for 2 months. Natural Retreats placed the snow factory by the car park, the wrong place as it meant any snow created had to be moved uphill. It would have been much better located the above the new Shieling Ski tow which had allegedly been created for beginners and which was accessible from the funicular mid-station.
In addition, at Cairn Gorm power was provided by a diesel generator and Natural Retreats, who had dismissed all suggestions of a hydro scheme as being the best way to operate such machines sustainably in the long-term, baulked at the costs involved. These problems were made worse as it appears Caingorm Mountain did not have an appropriate water supply. Water was extracted from the Allt Mor but, even with sump points built into the burn to ‘still’ the water and with a gauze filter over the end of the extraction pipe, there were issues with filters becoming choked. My understanding is that when the SnowFactory was moved from CairnGorm to the Lecht around the beginning of February 2018, it was inoperable and the Lecht had to call in TechonAlpin engineers from Italy to return it to service. It has worked fine since.
After the “trial” at Cairngorm HIE then played fast and loose with the grant funding that had been promised to Lecht and Glencoe. HIE tried to delay it by calling in yet more consultants to examine the costs vs benefits associated with having TechnoAlpin Snowfactories in a Scottish Ski area. This appears to have been an attempt by HIE to stymie the ambitions of Lecht and Glencoe, who had long advocated snow machines. As an illustration of HIE and Natural Retreats’ ability to make good use of the technology, ski activitists posted information about the usage of the Robin magic carpet at Lecht and the Coire Pollach Tow at Glencoe last winter. They were both open for over 100 days and these are the lifts that will be made snowsure by the snowfactories. Meanwhile on CairnGorm the Sunkid Rope Tow at the Sheiling Track was only open for around 25 Days.
HIE, while demanding reports from each snow making trials they helped fund, have – you guessed it – have failed to make these public. Yet they are now splashing out £1m on snow factories at Cairn Gorm. Apart from panic, HIE now need to explain clearly why their Board agreed to splash this cash and how in fact they know the £1m will be well spent. How much, for example, will go on hire of the machines and how much to Natural Retreats and for what?
Snowfactories could be part of a wider solution at Cairn Gorm which involved new ski infrastructure and could help in the short-term but the public and skiers need to know that any money spent will be used properly.
Cracks open up between HIE and Natural Retreats – more HIE hypocrisy
Charlotte Wright, Chief Executive of HIE, has been widely quoted as being concerned by Natural Retreats’ decision not to run the ski school this winter and failure to consult HIE on this. This is total hypocrisy. First because HIE has remained silent when Natural Retreats has failed to consult other stakeholders on what they are doing at Cairn Gorm. Second because Parkswatch has been warning of the impending financial disaster at CairnGorm Mountain for well over 18 months (see here) and a month ago explained yet again the gaping financial hole opening up under the company (see here). Why then would HIE expect Cairngorm Mountain Ltd, whose accounts shows its net liabilities had increased to £2,099,875 by December 2017 and whose parent company now has net liabilities of over £34m, do anything but lay off staff in such circumstances?
The real issues here are not whether Natural Retreats consulted on the ski school closure or not – that is simply a symptom of a much wider failure. Rather they concern how HIE ever decided to sell CairnGorm Mountain Ltd at a discount to such company in the first place and their subsequent failure to act despite the growing list of problems. HIE has assured people who were concerned about the sale of Cairngorm Mountain to the Natural Retreats Group that all due diligence was undertaken. What should now be abundantly clear is whatever action HIE undertook was grossly insufficient, even if technically it met the standards at the time, and that there have been serious failings in the procurement process.
An important question about the sale of CairnGorm Mountain Ltd is how a bid from Cairngorm Snowsports, a local company who at the time employed over 85 ski instructors and admin staff over the winter and knew how the mountain operated, was excluded by HIE from the tender process back in 2013? Ostensibly, this was because the company failed to turnover £500,000 a year – so what one might ask when the alternative chosen by HIE was a group who have, ostensibly at least, made a net LOSS of c£5-6m each year? One might also rue the fact that having destroyed those local companies, there is now no-one readily available to step in and take over management of Cairn Gorm from Natural Retreats.
So, plenty of questions HIE need to answer. Its time for a Scottish Parliamentary Committee investigation into what has gone wrong at Cairn Gorm.
Edited 1 times. Last edit at 11.57hrs Fri 2 Nov 18 by Doug_Bryce.
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