You are quoting this:-""We have worked closely with Cairngorm Mountain to re-negotiated our lease for the Cairngorm Hut."" (from the 2nd November 2016 AGM)

SSC have clarified they own 100% & have paid for the building, HIE & the estate own the land, CMLtd /NR are the operators only.

It does not matter if CMLtd/NR or what ever you call them own the land...they DO NOT own the building or the cameras!

They abused their position as key holder to gain internal access & wilfully damaged/interfered with possessions not belonging to them within a building not owned by them....That's the long & short of it.

Legally they don't have a leg to stand on, I used to be a landlord & have represented myself in several court cases in the Sheriffs court (& won) so I know what the legal parameters are for entry into buildings, damaged caused, contracts etc..



---That was not a fall, I intended to do that!---



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 17.30hrs Tue 28 Nov 17 by SnowmanDave.

Legally they dont have a leg to stand on?

They were given a key therefore the right of access is implied - so no crime there.

Removing goods belonging to a third party and not the leaseholder is a more interesting one. Leaseholders have right to enjoy their lease without interference - but Winterhighland is not the leaseholder.

As i said in my original post - any claim would likely have to be a civil action and would need to be tested in a court of law.

I'm thinking that as NR have retained solicitors and deep pockets - then it would be a brave person to go down this route unless they were very sure of what they were doing.







Edited 1 times. Last edit at 21.47hrs Tue 28 Nov 17 by ropetow.

Just because you are a "keyholder" only gives you the right to allow users in or to go in at the owners/tenants request, or in emergency...


It does NOT give you the right to enter the property with less than 24hrs notice for your own needs (apparently against the owners wishes also) to interfere with the owners property...

the owner of said stuff being the SSC..

.....even IF the hut was owned by NR/CMLtd & only the cameras were owned by SSC...they (Nr/CMLtd) still have no right to enter like that without way longer notice (usually several days there is a legal limit)...

& they are still not allowed it remove or interfere with the tenants possessions....unless it can be proven that said possessions are causing damage to the Landlords property...good luck with that..

...also the sheriff will look at how long have the possessions (cameras/weatherstation) been there unhindered, free open usage etc.....several years & NR have known since 2014...so they wait 3yrs before they do anything??

Like I said NR haven't got a leg to stand on....

Sorry but you understand very little about the legal aspects of Scottish tenancy law & you understand very little about the correct aspects of Scottish court & what the sheriff will lead on..

Having been involved in the landlord business for years & having been in Scottish civil courts & represented myself successfully I have more knowledge than most..plus I studied various aspects of Scottish law at uni...



---That was not a fall, I intended to do that!---

Dont have any issue with what you have said about tenants rights however Winterhighland are not the tenants.

...and CML/NR do not own the view of the hillside.

Which in reality is what this is about. They’re staking a claim to control all web accessible views of the hillside. If you read any of their statements this is the recurring theme. To replace “pirate” webcams with units under their control. Image rights etc.

[www.planetski.eu]

"Our team are working hard to install a new camera at the Scottish Ski Club hut at CairnGorm Mountain. The new camera was installed inside the building yesterday with the permission of the Scottish Ski Club"

My suggestion would be to get a solicitor to write a letter without prejudice (only lawyers can do that) insisting that NR/CML immediately return/reinstate and equipment, provide a written guarantee that they will not interfere with anything on/in the SSC hut in future without express written permission, make a payment to cover all expenses dealing with this, or you will be reporting the matter to the police.

This should trigger the involvement of NR/CML lawyers. If it does not then the firm is run by a bunch of incompetent morons (though does look like that is actually the case). The lawyers will then advise NR/CML, on the proviso they don't lie to the lawyers which would be monumentally stupid to take the offered solution as they are 110% in the wrong, and the last thing they want is to be at the very least cautioned.

I would say stick in a demand for a public apology, which is not in my view unreasonable, but courts tend to frown on that sort of thing.

I am personally really annoyed as some years ago I made a donation for installation and upkeep of cameras and weather stations by Winterhighland.

Hum, that suggests that NR/CML took the cameras away, which is really really stupid of them, and it has already been reported to the Police. I would say it's theft, but that requires "an intention to permanently deprive", which if they are just sitting at the front desk in the daylodge waiting to be collected would not apply.

It is however clear NR/CML seem to think they have image rights to views of the mountain side which is most emphatically not the case.

"Is it 14 days or 24 hours notice needed?" Shouted the opposing lawyer with a big smile and a raging boner.. Correct, it was at this time the snowman realised he fecked up and should have paid for a professional bullshitter, saving himself from paying damages too tenner bag tam...

I do get carried away when I'm smashed, the law should make weed illegal so I cannae get it!


Cairngorms suck - tshirts etc, help them with their image, a head for an eye and the whole structure for a tooth will save anyone else fae going blind.

Interesting....Why would the SSC hut/members give NR/CML permission to re-install their own camera's when they didnt even authorise the removal of the WH cams?

CML state the new camera was installed with permission inside the hut? Which brings the question....who is responsible for the ADSL/ethernet line into the hut to power the cams? Unless we are talking wireless/wifi/3G/4G enabled connection here. Are CML paying a lease on the line and the bandwidth used? Have they put their own line in?

Something doesnt seem to add up IMHO with the permission of installing the new cam.

Fair enough if the SSC gave permission for CML to install a new camera alongside the WH one to cover the same/slightly similar view....but thats a different ball game.

I'm NOT confused it depends on what the landlord/tenant agreement is in writing...& the situation.....

Usually it is a legal minimum of 24hrs for minor stuff, unless absolute emergency.....& if you are planning bigger repairs, new windows, new boiler say then it is expected that you will know about the fitment way before 24hrs so a usual 14 days written notice is required to be given by the landlord to the tenant.

However the above not applicable in this case as SSC paid for, built & own 100% the building...just the land it sits on is owned by HIE/estate who give reasonability for the whole mountain to the operator...which make NR their landlord...however NR's landlord is in effect HIE/estate...

Personally I would inform police, write one letter stating facts, & stating that small claims court proceedings will start for reparation money for the damages etc ...& send the letter recorded delivery to the HIE/estate & to NR/CML....

Play it 100% by the book....the SSC might not want to upset NR due to other things, but NR/CML has acted first & they don't care, if know you will roll over what is to stop them trying more stupid stuff later....

They might decide that they don't like the look of the SSC hut & it doesn't fit in with their plans for the mountain...& they have keyholder access....I can think of various situations which would result in terminal damage, & difficult to prove how it started...

Please remember people this is the UK arm of an USA company which is very good at asset stripping & getting what they want...& the UK companies (which I looked into a few years back) have all sorts of money disappearing tricks etc...& the accounts make very interesting reading..



---That was not a fall, I intended to do that!---

I know very little of the law, but I do know that Winterhighland ( Alan) put that camera in position ( and many others) at a time when no-one was providing such a service. To someone like me, hundreds of miles away, they have been invaluable in gauging conditions and generally feeling connected to an area of the country that I love very much.
I am shocked that CML have resorted to such tactics. It is control freakery at its worst.I'm not a member of the SSC, but I'm pretty sure that plenty of people on here are. Have the SSC responded to any members inquiries yet?

FYI CGM has gone live with their SSC web cam. It is as bad as the rest of their offerings

IMHO the Scottish Ski Club have been placed in impossible situation...
The land lease on their lunch hut dependent on good relations with the lift company. In addition their kids in junior race training / coaches likely get a discount on season tickets. Both of these dependent on historical good will.

In an ideal world they would take a firmer stance against bullying from Natural Retreats. However in the real world I can see why they wont wish to get involved.

From the planet ski link above.

"Ken Carruthers, vice president of the Scottish Ski Club told PlanetSKI that the club had been aware that CML wanted to remove the webcams as a result of a dispute between the company and Winterhighland.
He said the Club had wanted the cameras to remain as a valuable resource and wrote to CML asking if they could reach an understanding with Winterhighland to retain them.
Mr Carruthers said the Club had no axe to grind with either party and was "piggy in the middle" of the row.
He confirmed that the webcams had been dismantled without the Club's knowledge and without any member present.
He said CML has its own key to the hut for emergency access."



Edited 2 times. Last edit at 10.05hrs Wed 29 Nov 17 by Doug_Bryce.