AHH Wrote:
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> Could I ask, as an impartial observer, why do the
> people who contribute to this study and post on
> this forum feel so passionately about old snow?
>
> Anthropomorphisation of snow patches is not
> something I have come across before
>

Fundamentally it's a climatic monitoring process. Snow survival can be related to climatic trends. - That's the technical basis.

I don't know if it's strictly "anthropomorphism", but there is an emotional connection undoubtedly. Some of this must arise from the respect that folk have for the mountains on which snow persists.

Given that most site visitors are hoping for a "good" winter...if a snowpatch survives into Oct/Nov, then it is naturally taken as a source of optimism for the coming snowsport season.?

If that doesn't cut it....how about "we're rooting for the little guys, because we admire the way they stand up to the Big Bad Summer" - Anthropomorphic enough?

Are you sure you’re using the right word here? I, for one, don’t think that snow-patches have any anthropomorphic qualities. I do concede that it’s an odd subject to get enthused about, but it’s no odder than painting model aircraft, or standing on the end of a platform with a notepad and a pen. I must say, though, that at least there’s scientific merit in the study of snow.

The Highlands of Scotland represent the only place in the British Isles where snow can persist from one year to the next, making it a very useful indicator of whether or not Scotland’s climate is changing in any way. Some years quite a few survive, whilst in other years only a couple survive.

Like most unusual hobbies, unless you are involved in it you are unlikely to understand it.

I once thought that there were only a couple of folk interested in this sort of thing, but you only have to look at this thread to see the interest it generates. It’s been viewed almost 20,000 times since the start of June. That’s 1000 times a week. ‘Nuff said?

Don't get me wrong, I find the subject fascinating myself, and always have done, ever since I was a child. If I lived a bit nearer the hills, I would definitely be out there reporting from the front line. I am simply fascinated to find out what drives people to report on such an esoteric subject. I've always wanted to climb some of the Grade III/ IV winter gullies in summer just to see what they look like when they're not under 3 feet of snow.

And I wouldn't compare this hobby to trainspotting or model aircraft building since it encourages you to visit some of the wildest places in Scotland. You could argue that it is more useful than Munro-bagging since it provides useful scientific information.

I wonder how many women read/report on this subject. It would be interesting, though ultimately pointless to find out!

Perhaps you should give your hobbby a name? Snow Patch Extent and Resilience Monitoring? Maybe not.

Nice acronym!

Don't let the distance from the hills put you off. As an exiled Scot, I live in south-east England and manage to do alright.

I'll give you a list of places that would be useful to visit next July if you're interested!

AHH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Could I ask, as an impartial observer, why do the
> people who contribute to this study and post on
> this forum feel so passionately about old snow?
>
> Anthropomorphisation of snow patches is not
> something I have come across before and I am
> curious to learn more about why people feel
> protective towards and have emotional capital tied
> up in old snow in Scotland.
>
> Thank you

I've been intrigued and fascinated by snow and ice since I was a kid. When I started hillwalking nearly 20 years ago, in my first year I came across snow surviving through the summer and have been hooked since! I have progressed to winter climbing and this has allowed me to get closer to some of the sites where snow builds to massive depths. To follow the dimunition of these snow fields through a summer season does have a certain addictive quality to it (for some of us obviously - although I do wonder how many of the 20 000 visitors to this thread actually think we're mad/weird/sad etc?!).
And consider this - where else in the world, on a similar latitude, does snow survive through summers, at elevations below 1300m? I'm pretty certain nowhere! For such a small country with such small mountains in the middle of the ocean, I reckon that's pretty impressive, and something which Scotland should be proud of - that we have such a unique mountain environment!

p.s. interesting point you make AHH about female interest in such matters - personally, my wife humours me (and the kids are less subtle!)
p.p.s.willing to be corrected re. the survival of snow at similar elevations and latitudes byraway!

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stuart Wrote:
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> Ross,Alice,
>
> Back in March 2006 I hiked up my local hill
> Queensberry (697m) and had a good wee slide back
> down. I have a small report and a couple of
> pictures on my site.
> I have also been up both Hartfell and White Comb
> for a slide in previous years.
> Will be hoping to get out on the Moffat hills this
> winter.

Stuart - thanks for the report and pics! Got rather excited on my drive to work this morning seeing a light dusting of snow on Queensberry.

Moffatross - your local hills are a little too far in the distance for me to see from my end of D&G - please let me know when you suspect there may be sufficient cover for a wee bit of exploring over the coming season!

With reference to Fireflys posting on page 16 regarding the possibility of a patch still surviving in Gardyloo Gully i'd say 'yes'.

The best view of this gully is undoubtedly from the slopes of its neighbour CMD.
I still got a decent view from the lower half of Observatory but the mist and rime made it impossible to be certain.

On the day i definitely felt sure that this was an old patch of snow as the fresh snow would have filled the gully and not have been perched higher with a clear view of the base,the photos further back on this thread on pages 7-9 show these Gardyloo patches to be very small but in late Aug they were very deep.

I was fairly sure that i'd be back so i didn't pay too much attention on the day.

Conditions are certainly wintry just now with all forecasts agreeing on pressure rising towards the w/end.

Should we experience any significant thawing during early November i'll certainly return with the camera and binoculars!

I think HTH has hit the nail on the head when he suggests that we all love to stand up for the little guy (the summer snowpatch in Scotland) which survives against all the odds.

I remember reading somewhere that if Ben Nevis were 100m higher, it would have a glacier (this was some time ago) but just imagine if it did! I've been fascinated by snow ever since the big snows of 1983 - 1984 which made skiing possible on the North Downs of Kent. I was only 9 years old at the time, but I have been faintly disappointed by every winter since...

Surely one of the great pleasures in life is finding a big snow field and glissading/bum-sliding down it in the spring? Number 4 gully on the Ben is usually ideal. Long live the snow patches and their benefactors!

It was postulated in the 1980's that if the Ben or Cairngorms were 300m higher or if average temps dropped by 2C both would hold small glaciers.

Obviously with GW now taking effect this is now even more distant.

It is not just in this country that such interest in these sorts of things is great.

On Vihren (2914m) in the Pirin range of Bulgaria is a small icefield that attracts a large amount of interest as to whether it should be classed as a glacier or snowfield. If it were the former it would be the most southerly in Europe.

As a casual reader of this thread from Yorkshire and regular visitor to the Cairngorms, I too hope for the survival of as many patches as possible in Scotland - more locally the best I can manage is a photo of a surviving snow patch on Great Whernside in Yorkshire taken on 17 June 1979.

On the specific point of whether snow exists at a similar latitude elsewhere, I flew to America several years ago in August and noticed out of the window snowfields and small glaciers in Labrador near the east coast. I checked afterwards and the Labrador mountains are on a similar latitude to Scotland and are geologically the counterparts of the scottish highlands - they are slightly higher (some over 5,000 feet) and their corries do hold permanent glacial ice. Further down the eastern side of America, the White Mountains of New Hampshire are higher and warmer (with Mount Washington at 6,000 feet) and on the same latitude as the south of France - the snow in the highest corries there normally goes by July and I saw nothing when i visited one August although apparently the extreme severity of the winters does enable permafrost to survive. It is interesting however to observe the winter weather conditions and snow on the websites at: [www.mountwashington.org] and [www.tuckerman.org]

Jamie Wrote:
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> Da kishman - nice work with the blatant
> advertising for H-I on WH (as seen in this pic)
>
> Cheque's in the post
>
> _______________
> "No I don't ski in Scotland.. I'm just too damn
> extreme to actually go skiing at all"
> highland-instinct


The penny's just dropped as to what you meant by 'H-I' - only took me 2 days - doh!

p.s.you sure it was a cheque you sent..........?!

Garbh Uisge Beag snowpatch site today (2.Nov.) c.w. 2nd photo on RJ's post of 16.Oct

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Thats dedicated!

We were on Macdui at the same time so if you want any long range shots let me know.

Mike in Edinburgh
Assorted scottish pics - www.prog99.com

Good work, Da kishman!

Looks to be a good covering on those patches, and survival now assured (barring a thaw of biblical proportions). I'd like to see a picture of Aonach Mor from the Roy Bridge area to gauge how much protalus site has caught. If, as I suspect, it's as well covered as GUBeag then that'll have survived as well, though it won't be much more than a metre or so in length.

Observatory gully and Gardyloo gully patches should be well topped-up, too. Aonach Beag never really in doubt, even though it won't have caught much of the new snow.

I make that 8, but with more volume of snow surviving than last year (although 1 fewer patch).

*EDIT* Sorry, Point 5 Gully on Nevis makes it 9! How could I forget that one?!



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 21.48hrs Sun 2 Nov 08 by firefly.

I know all the new snow has put everyone into a frenzy, and that's pretty much it (I hope) for another year, so I thought I'd download most of my 2008 collection onto flickr so that anyone interested could have a look. [www.flickr.com]

There are a few photos from this forum on there, and I can't remember who took what, so everyone please accept my thanks for contributing to this thread.

This year's been a roller-coaster, and special thanks go to coaster, Da kishman, snowpatch95, RJ, HTH, andrewr, mike_w, al_a and everyone else that contributed with photographs and reports. The official paper will come out in the "Weather" journal next year sometime (hopefully), where winterhighland is sure to get a good mention!

Cheers.